Author Topic: Preventing aging (generally)  (Read 4334 times)

Jfsk

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Preventing aging (generally)
« on: April 18, 2015, 12:36:26 pm »
Hi ladies and gents,
I'm currently collecting all the data I can on the aging topic. CAVEAT : science guy here, boring bits here and there ;).

Motivation : the whole day, I happen to be around great ladies, the interesting kind : those who do not consider their lives finished, are still eager to read, go out, learn new things..., at 40 or even later. Some of them feel sad that, though they improved a lot during the past decades, they don't get the attention they deserve anymore. As a result, they get breast implants, tummy tucks ; it kinda works, but it's sad to see their great bodies suffer from aging  :'(. They don't deserve it. (in fact, most of humanity doesn't deserve it)

I really think there are 2 topics here :
- plastic surgery : skin "lifting", breast implants (hence why it is a great TPB topic !)
- low-level treatment : understanding of how aging works.

Regarding innear treatment : These days, we all know that the mammals aging process has something to do with chromosomal division limit :  the well-known telomeres. In a nutshell, each time our cells get replaced, a "counter" gets down by one unit. There is a hard limit to this counter, cells become damaged after it has been reached. There are also (breast-)related diseases : ladies may want to read the end of this part. So how do we prevent/limit this ?

Regarding plastic surgery, here's what comes to mind :
* breast implants : boobs deflate or are damaged . Let's resplenish them !
* tummy tuck : flat and smooth bellies are an attribute of beauty.
* face lifting : self-explanatory. Let's have this kissable baby face back :)
Anything more ? What do we do for the neck ? For the skin itself ?

I'm sorry if the subject sounds a bit "too serious" here and there... are you gents and ladies interested in such a topic ?

ThomasSmith

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2015, 11:10:41 am »
It'll probably be decades before some kind of telomere treatment to lengthen the natural maximum lifespan of humans becomes available. From what I recall this is already working in experiments with earthworms and has tripled their lifespan - but it's a long way to go from earthworms to humans. All you can really do until then is eat healthy, sleep well, avoid chronic stress, avoid drugs, protect yourself against the sun, exercise regularly and pursue and active lifestyle. Beyond that, it's just luck being among the people that get to be 100+. Some folks live super healthy and get cancer at 40 while others smoke like a chimney and live to a ripe old age.

Jfsk

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2015, 09:11:25 pm »
Hi ThomasSmith, thanks a lot for your reply !

I totally agree with your point : have a good diet (which mostly means : keep balance between protein/carbohydrates/lipidic/vegetals, especially try to increase vegetals and decrease carbohydrates, there are poison), limit sun exposure (our body needs it, but most people sunbath too much), do sports or at least walk one-two hours per day...

It is also true that it is a lottery. Some people will live longer or resist bad conditions because their metabolism is more fit. But, just as we were able to increase global lifespan with better hygiene, medicine, ... something global can definitely be done. Eventually interested in other things less sci-fi (I agree) than telomere treatment.

PS : Now collecting info on various anti-aging plastic surgeries, such as the neck and skin - we often see magnificient 40-50-year old ladies who underwent various surgeries, but these body parts seem to remain weak spots.

KwukDuck

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2015, 03:11:03 pm »
I understand people want to avoid looking older at some point. However i think it's in our best interest to work on longevity on a more fundamental level, support research and education in the right fields. Why spend thousands of dollars on getting your skin stretched up if you can do a great contribution with that same money to help everybody including yourself over time. Sure, over time may just be too late, but technological advancements are exponentially accelerating. Imagining age serious longevity within our lifetimes is not an extraordinary vision. It does however bring some major social and political implications with it, that will probably delay the availability big time or could even make it illegal to make use of it or even do research on the matter. Just look at stem cell research.

Shortening of the telomeres plays a big role in aging but it's not the only factor and very complex.

Some quick info on the matter with a lot of sources to find more info for people interested: http://senescence.info/telomeres_telomerase.html

Aging is a key factor in the evolutionary process right from the start, without aging/death, there is no evolution and we wouldn't be here to want to live longer in the first place.

ThomasSmith

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2015, 10:53:01 am »
The question is, if anyone really wants to live hundreds of years - even many old people today are bored and jaded by life, as it happens when you experience the same things over and over again.

The average life expectancy is now 95 years (upper class women in first world nations) - that's thrice than 200 years ago, when barely anyone made it past 60.

Arie

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2015, 01:23:51 pm »
The question is, if anyone really wants to live hundreds of years - even many old people today are bored and jaded by life, as it happens when you experience the same things over and over again.

The average life expectancy is now 95 years (upper class women in first world nations) - that's thrice than 200 years ago, when barely anyone made it past 60.

I agree. Having people live for hundereds of years creates huge problems for the world we live in. The goal should be to live healthy for you entire life, instead of living the last 30 years of your life without contributing to society, and costing money. Women (and men) looking young longer is a added bonus.
General laws of fake boobage:
1) Fake boobs should not bring unnecessary health risks
2) Fake boobs should look as beautiful as possible, unless this breaks rule 1
3) Fake boobs should be as big as possible, unless this breaks rules 1 and 2

KwukDuck

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2015, 05:38:02 am »
The question is, if anyone really wants to live hundreds of years - even many old people today are bored and jaded by life, as it happens when you experience the same things over and over again.

The average life expectancy is now 95 years (upper class women in first world nations) - that's thrice than 200 years ago, when barely anyone made it past 60.

I don't know where you got that figure, nowhere can i find figures that high, max i can find sources for is an overall of 87 years and it's going down rapidly from there in other (even in 'first world') countries.

Honestly i get really pissed off by people that say they are bored. There is way way way WAY too much to do, learn and experience for one lifetime. I can proudly say i haven't been bored for a second since i got into my twenties and started to really appreciate life.
It's fine people don't care much for the complexities of life, learning, experiencing.. just want to watch football and drink beer, i can imagine it get's boring in that experience of life, i just don't think you have the right to express boredom with life, you're just not grabbing what life has to offer in that case imho.

@Arie This is an inevitable problem we will have to deal with eventually.
Aging is a process of accumulating damage and and disease, you can't have your cake and eat it. You can't be 'young' until your 80's and then just die.

ThomasSmith

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2015, 12:28:53 pm »
The question is, if anyone really wants to live hundreds of years - even many old people today are bored and jaded by life, as it happens when you experience the same things over and over again.

The average life expectancy is now 95 years (upper class women in first world nations) - that's thrice than 200 years ago, when barely anyone made it past 60.

I don't know where you got that figure, nowhere can i find figures that high, max i can find sources for is an overall of 87 years and it's going down rapidly from there in other (even in 'first world') countries.

Honestly i get really pissed off by people that say they are bored. There is way way way WAY too much to do, learn and experience for one lifetime. I can proudly say i haven't been bored for a second since i got into my twenties and started to really appreciate life.
It's fine people don't care much for the complexities of life, learning, experiencing.. just want to watch football and drink beer, i can imagine it get's boring in that experience of life, i just don't think you have the right to express boredom with life, you're just not grabbing what life has to offer in that case imho.

@Arie This is an inevitable problem we will have to deal with eventually.
Aging is a process of accumulating damage and and disease, you can't have your cake and eat it. You can't be 'young' until your 80's and then just die.

I was referring to a study done in the UK, they compared the average life expectancies of men and women living in upscale and low income neighborhoods in one of its major cities. The average life expectancy of women living in the upper class neighborhood was 94, the life expectancy of men in a lower income neighborhood an incredible 30 years shorter. It really stuck with me, because life expectancies reveal such a massive class (and sex) divide, even in Western societies. Just think of the six years that women live longer in pretty much every western nation, thanks to a society that puts various life-shortening pressures on men (like military service, engaging in pretty much all the physically dangerous labor etc.). The class divide is even more extreme, as wealthy people can afford better health care, better nutrition, avoid exhausting manual labor and chronic stress. The queen has never had to lift a finger to perform any of the tasks of daily living that normal people have to do every day and that is why she will live to a hundred plus, like her own mother and various other members of her family.

KwukDuck

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2015, 04:25:11 pm »
Quote
Just think of the six years that women live longer in pretty much every western nation, thanks to a society that puts various life-shortening pressures on men (like military service, engaging in pretty much all the physically dangerous labor etc.).

Correlation does not imply causation.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

If this is a significant variable, it is ever decreasing as these pressures get less and less, or more equal.
Just having a smaller build also correlates with relative longevity in pretty much all species afaik.

ThomasSmith

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2015, 11:27:30 am »
Quote
Just think of the six years that women live longer in pretty much every western nation, thanks to a society that puts various life-shortening pressures on men (like military service, engaging in pretty much all the physically dangerous labor etc.).

Correlation does not imply causation.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

If this is a significant variable, it is ever decreasing as these pressures get less and less, or more equal.
Just having a smaller build also correlates with relative longevity in pretty much all species afaik.

This argument was ruled out in the cloister study. Removed from the stress factors that shorten men's life spans in the "real world", monks have the same life expectancy as nuns.

KwukDuck

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2015, 05:47:04 pm »
Quote
Just think of the six years that women live longer in pretty much every western nation, thanks to a society that puts various life-shortening pressures on men (like military service, engaging in pretty much all the physically dangerous labor etc.).

Correlation does not imply causation.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

If this is a significant variable, it is ever decreasing as these pressures get less and less, or more equal.
Just having a smaller build also correlates with relative longevity in pretty much all species afaik.

This argument was ruled out in the cloister study. Removed from the stress factors that shorten men's life spans in the "real world", monks have the same life expectancy as nuns.

Ah yes, i did a quick google on that term, I guess you're referring to the work of "Marc Luy, Research Scientist, Federal Institute for Population Research (Bundesinstitut für Bevölkerungsforschung), Wiesbaden, Germany."
Very interesting findings.
I still wonder if that's all there is to it, since the age gap remains in modern society, even though the typical gender roles are fading.

ThomasSmith

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2015, 11:58:54 am »
Quote
Just think of the six years that women live longer in pretty much every western nation, thanks to a society that puts various life-shortening pressures on men (like military service, engaging in pretty much all the physically dangerous labor etc.).

Correlation does not imply causation.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

If this is a significant variable, it is ever decreasing as these pressures get less and less, or more equal.
Just having a smaller build also correlates with relative longevity in pretty much all species afaik.

This argument was ruled out in the cloister study. Removed from the stress factors that shorten men's life spans in the "real world", monks have the same life expectancy as nuns.

Ah yes, i did a quick google on that term, I guess you're referring to the work of "Marc Luy, Research Scientist, Federal Institute for Population Research (Bundesinstitut für Bevölkerungsforschung), Wiesbaden, Germany."
Very interesting findings.
I still wonder if that's all there is to it, since the age gap remains in modern society, even though the typical gender roles are fading.

Well, just consider that 70 % of suicides, 90 % of homelessness and 90 % of work-related deaths happen to men. The vast majority of hard, dangerous manual labor (construction, steel plants, coal mining etc.) is performed by men. Among the military casualties in the US armed forces since 9-11, 99 % were men. All of this dampens the average male life span. Factor in many other issues that are still caused by "typical gender roles" and that accounts for the five to six year gap in life expectancy - while the potential life expectancy of men and women is identical. The class divide is even more extreme, with a 20+ year life expectancy difference between the working poor and the upper class.

If a true anti-aging treatment becomes available, I wouldn't be surprised if it will only be available to the rich and powerful (a popular trope in sci-fi movies like "In time" or "Elysium"). Death is the only thing that these people still have in common with ordinary humans - remove that and they can truly live like gods. Even if such a treatment were cheaply available, withholding it from the general population might be the course of action simply to avoid even more overpopulation than we're suffering from in today's world already. The earth just can't support an immortal and rapidly growing humanity ad infinitum.

Jfsk

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2015, 07:51:13 pm »
Interesting things here.

Quote from: ThomasSmith
Just think of the six years that women live longer in pretty much every western nation, thanks to a society that puts various life-shortening pressures on men (like military service, engaging in pretty much all the physically dangerous labor etc.). [...]Well, just consider that 70 % of suicides, 90 % of homelessness and 90 % of work-related deaths happen to men. [...] while the potential life expectancy of men and women is identical.
Thanks for summarizing this so simply, ThomasSmith, because it is always overlooked or, worse, maliciously "forgotten" in modern studies.
The (politically incorrect) reason why men live shorter than women, is that life is harder for them. They also have less safe spots in case something goes wrong (losing one's job, becoming socially isolated and lonely...), hence the suicide rate. I'm not saying than life cannot be harsh on women too, but statistically, what you said is 100% true.

On the other hand, most men won't complain nor feel bitter for it ; I won't do, I don't think you'd do it either... this would be losing dignity. And there are obvious upsides to being a man, too  ;).

Quote from: ThomasSmith
The earth just can't support an immortal and rapidly growing humanity ad infinitum.

I thought of this once before. My idea was that, if you choose to become immortal, you give up any rights to have children at the same time (while still risking being killed for random reasons). The choice thus becomes less obvious, and more balanced.

ThomasSmith

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2015, 11:25:57 am »
Interesting things here.

Quote from: ThomasSmith
Just think of the six years that women live longer in pretty much every western nation, thanks to a society that puts various life-shortening pressures on men (like military service, engaging in pretty much all the physically dangerous labor etc.). [...]Well, just consider that 70 % of suicides, 90 % of homelessness and 90 % of work-related deaths happen to men. [...] while the potential life expectancy of men and women is identical.
Thanks for summarizing this so simply, ThomasSmith, because it is always overlooked or, worse, maliciously "forgotten" in modern studies.
The (politically incorrect) reason why men live shorter than women, is that life is harder for them. They also have less safe spots in case something goes wrong (losing one's job, becoming socially isolated and lonely...), hence the suicide rate. I'm not saying than life cannot be harsh on women too, but statistically, what you said is 100% true.

On the other hand, most men won't complain nor feel bitter for it ; I won't do, I don't think you'd do it either... this would be losing dignity. And there are obvious upsides to being a man, too  ;).

Quote from: ThomasSmith
The earth just can't support an immortal and rapidly growing humanity ad infinitum.

I thought of this once before. My idea was that, if you choose to become immortal, you give up any rights to have children at the same time (while still risking being killed for random reasons). The choice thus becomes less obvious, and more balanced.

There would have to be a thorough, world-wide population control - meaning a pregnancy lottery at the ratio of the few deaths per year that would still occor due to accidents, violent crimes and freak diseases. That would only be enforcable by some kind of totalitarian world government - not a prospect I look forward to. How would a society with barely any children and lots of incredibly old people look like? The only other solution would be colonization of other celestial bodies like Mars. Even then we'd eventually run out of real estate in the solar system and would need interstellar travel to spread growing human populations further among the stars.

KwukDuck

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Re: Preventing aging (generally)
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2015, 04:32:24 am »
Two interesting links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO5J5r3NuqU
Some more detailed stuff regarding the core issue (and related topics) here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senescence#Cellular_senescence

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